Transcripts on Cockney Heritage
George’s Story by Louise aka Curly Wordy - Holden Point (Part One)
George’s Story by Louise aka Curly Wordy - Holden Point (Part Two)
George’s Story by Louise aka Curly Wordy - Holden Point (Part Three)
George’s Story by Louise aka Curly Wordy - Holden Point (Part Four)
Des’ Story by Althea - Badu Digital Hub
Des
0:00:00
I come from West London originally, but moved to East London when I was nine. So I've always classed myself as an East Londoner, because it's where I grew up, did my schooling, raised my children and became an adult. So, although I come from West London originally, but I was young and moved to East London. So East London is what I predominantly call home. So, yeah, I would say I'm an Eastender, not now cause of my voice but, back in the day you'd hear the Cockney come out of me.
Althea
0:00:33
Was that the Cockney you said you had?
Des
0:00:35
Yes.
Althea
0:00:36
Tell us a little bit about how the Cockney of the East London that you remember.
Des
0:00:41
Cause, when I grew up in East London back then it was predominantly Irish, and Caribbean. So when you move about with these people you kind of pick up the lingo. So yeah, that's how I kind of picked it up. I went to a predominantly Catholic school, so all my family and all my friends, we all then went the same way, predominantly Catholic school, we were all kind of was raised with the same mannerisms, same principles, morals, scruples, we were all the same, all the same barring our skin colour, that was the only separate entity, but we all grew up and went to the same school, learnt the same way, and was taught the same things, and the same morals and principles, because I'm very big on morals, principles and respect, that's always something, that's always been big in my household, that's my family and my friends.
All audio transcripts (11)
George’s Story by Louise aka Curly Wordy - Holden Point (Part One)
George
0:00:00
We had the biggest playground in the world, didn't we? Biggest playground in the world. I think at this time of year, in the school holidays, you used to have sun then, didn't you? It was like real then, wasn't it? And I used to look forward to it because I love water. I'm a water baby, you know, I'm used to it. I used to swim in the canal. You did, didn't you? Well, I'd build a raft. Because there was a big timber firm down there called the Lentons. They had massive... They used to have logs in there as round as this building. Big logs, come from Africa and all that. And you didn't have to nick anything because it was all in the canal. It would just fall off. Build a raft.
Louise
0:00:46
How old were you when you built a raft?
George
0:00:49
Cor blimey, from about eight. You know, you'd have a raft, and by the time you got to the first set of locks, it had fallen to bits. But we learned how to make rafts. We used to let the barges go. And on me trust it was fun, you know. But they used to let the barges go, and about two hours later, you'd hear, 'bong' you did. When they've all come down the canal and started in the lock gates, the lock gates set by the Three Mills.
Louise
0:01:19
So how was it like, talk to us about like the idea of the outside being a playground.
George
0:01:27
Oh yeah, it was more or less that was your all. You got up, you had something for breakfast, your mum used to do a big scrutinise round the back of your ears and make sure you'd gone out with a clean, and you was out the door and you didn't come back till you was hungry really. And your playground started, say mine might start in Whitechapel Road. And I didn't, she didn't like me going over there, it was filthy dirty over there where the railway works was. But that was a great place. You know, you could get on trains, and all that, and pretend to drive trains. Nobody used to say nothing to ya. There was a sweet factory there, Clarnico's.
Louise
0:02:21
What kind of sweets did you get?
George
0:02:23
Oh, my grandad was a drayman for Charrington's he was Mile End Road, you know, it's B&Qs now isn't it? He used to be a drayman there, so he was horses like. And at one time there was more stables in Bethnal Green than there was in the country. Every, go round all the back pubs there was stables everywhere. and I knew from a very young kid that horses like mints. Well, Clarnico's, extra strong and they love extra strong mints horses, they love them. Extra strong, all with boxes on them and toffees, it depends what you, you know, what you can get your hands on. But then the, we used to like pretend that the bank robbers had been over there and they made a lot of ponds in it. You'd never go in there because it was like oil, nearly all oil. But you know they'd put a safe in there where, you know, Guns and swords and, you know what I mean, and dead bodies. If someone who weren't from the area would go, cor yeah, what's in them lakes? oh yeah, what's in them lakes? I'd go, they're not lakes.
George’s Story by Louise aka Curly Wordy - Holden Point (Part Two)
Louise
0:00:00
Do you think that was driven from your background? Because I wonder how much, for me being a proud Cockney myself, I wonder how much that is like. There's something about being Cockney, being exposed to chitter-chatter young, a lot of talk young. Do you think it was driven by being Cockney? Yeah.
George
0:00:17
Yeah.
George
0:00:18
Oh yeah. It's sort of a breed all on its own?
Louise
0:00:21
It is, yeah.
George
0:00:23
And the beautiful thing about it was, it was never harmful, there was no harm in it. You had people that did. You know the sort of people I'm talking about that do that but being a Cockney isn't that at all. It's where you're born, it's how you talk, it's how you behave, it's how you treat people. You know like, from being a kid I've always heard that it's nice to be nice. You know, it's nice to be nice.
Louise
0:00:54
It is nice.
George
0:00:55
I can go anywhere in the world and meet people I've met and I'm welcome. Because, you know, if you're like that, if you're yourself, but you also bring something with it, knowledge that they haven't got.
Louise
0:01:10
Yeah, you're right, it is a new kind of knowledge, isn't it?
George
0:01:13
One of my little claims to things, I can't remember the exact date but we done the test for a job in the North Sea it was in 500 foot of water and it was a 10 inch kerosene line and it was very important but if it ever failed if it ever leaked or got broken at that time it would shut down the Royal Air Force you know, it was a very strategic material. They needed a method of repairing these pipes. And at the end of this tale is about being a Cockney. And we all went to do tests, we had to go and do tests in Aberdeen and you know, hyperbaric chamber and you had to do it. Anyway, we all done it, we all passed it and it was all approved by Lloyds. And on this date in 1970, whatever, near 1980, nine of us, and I was the only Cockney there by the way, all the rest were sort of from all over the country, there's no fucking divers in Nudden, is there? What do we do diving for? My mother-in-law used to think that's what I did. She thought I worked at the swimming pool being the diver. She didn't. But, yeah. So, at this, at Lloyd's, it was up in Aberdeen, in this big Swiss restaurant. The boss, I worked for BOC, the company I worked for, and it was a precious oxygen company, it was called BOC SLS, Sub-Ocean Services. We were the only welding company then that was able to do this underwater. We developed it and done it and passed it, so we were on standby. We was paid 60 quid a day to go on a list of this standby forever, until it was needed. And it was always, it was sitting this big, and the fellow from Lloyds went he said I'm proud to be sitting here amongst a bunch of young men working men from England that have done something that can't be done and you've done it. Our boss Danny Rosencrantz I'll never forget him. Danny Rosencrantz used to be the boss of Sparklet Soda Siphons then he became the boss of a diving company and he used to say to me, he was a boss. Danny Rosencrantz, leaned across the table and said, the last person he should have said it to was me. And there's all these country bumpkins all sitting there like that. He leaned across the table and he went, Do you know George? You nine people are the only people in the world that can do what you do today. So before he got the last breath of word out I went, [clap] let's talk money then! What, there's only nine of us? Well I want double what I'm getting now then. And he went, what? I said, you just made the biggest mistake anyone can make. You've just told me there's only one of me. You've just told me I'm a millionaire. He had a laugh but it was true. And the other blokes didn't, you know. And only afterwards we were talking over. Cor, they said, well it must have been good to be like when you were a kid. Because I'd be sitting here with uncles or bleak people and they'd be talking and doing things and planning things. I'd get a big pile of notes out and go, I've sold all them. You'd go out and buy a package, a parcel of gear. I've sold all that.
Louise
0:05:05
It's like that idea of scheming and coming up with like ideas.
George
0:05:11
Yeah, coming up with the art. Look at, look at, er, should've been...
George’s Story by Louise aka Curly Wordy - Holden Point (Part Three)
George
0:00:00
I was too, by then, the Cockney tradition of musicals was still big. I mean, the Theatre Royal, I can remember in the 70s, the Theatre Royal, it was like one of the best places we had here. We wanted that. Our pubs, you know, singers, comedians, like all this trad and trans and all that now, I can remember going to pubs, they all congregated on the Isle of Dogs. All the gay people, they all congregated, they're still there now most of them, some of them are old men older than me. But like, when I first took my wife into a pub on the Isle of Dogs in the 70s, this would be, 70, 71. She said, oh what's this music? I said yeah. She said, what is it, rock? I said no, I said this is going to be totally different, you've never seen. And it was drag artists. One of them used to work in the door. One actor was called Phil and Gay. And like Phil was [inaudible] and Gay was a really petite...
Louise
0:01:16
Phil and Gay.
George
0:01:18
You could not stop laughing. You'd bust. And they'd take the piss out of you. I told my wife she'd never get near the stage. If you go up to the toilet, go round the back of everybody. Because you'd get that, "oh look, there she goes, on her toes, for a wee wee I suppose", Joanie would get that all the time. And she used to go all red and I'd say, don't blush. I said, if you blush, he's going to have a look at you all night long. But, and now it's not a big thing, trans - men dressing up.
Louise
0:01:54
It's always existed.
George
0:01:56
Shut up! But, um, that's what we did. We liked... We used to go to like Chinese restaurants. People outside of London, probably people outside the East End, didn't know what a Chinese restaurant was. Look, one of the first Chinese restaurants I would have used was in Limehouse, where the original Chinatown was. Chinatown now is in Barrick Street, in here in Soho, opposite the Flamingo. But, we had Chinese, we had foreign food. We're having sweet corn soup every Friday night, lovely. But we'd have our soups for girls and all this thing. And I love a motor, I've always loved a motor. I had a roller when I was 20. I was earning good money and I - Rolls and Jags. I had my first Jag when I was 19. Lovely motor. Got all dressed all lovely and that.
George’s Story by Louise aka Curly Wordy - Holden Point (Part Four)
George
0:00:00
I grew up a Jew. I used to be called Georgie Yid and all that. It didn't bother me. I'd be with somebody. Why don't it bother you that people call you a Yid? I said, well, I don't. I'm not, you know, I'm not kosher. I go to Synagogue. I found Synagogue in the last couple of years. It's been really lovely. It's lovely. I love it. But,
George
0:00:26
So you know why you call me a Yid? Because we speak Yiddish. And Yid is just a shortening of the word Yiddish. It's our language, or Hebrew, but it's Yiddish. And Yiddish is actually the Cockney Slang of Hebrew. And if you go to Israel, you'll be able to talk to people and say, drop Yiddish words there, and they know exactly what you're talking about because there's a lot of people who live in Israel from the East End of London. All my original family came from Eastern Europe. Some from Russia, but mostly Eastern Europe. And when I sit here talking about people coming here and all that, they've been coming here for years. For years. And, I mean, then it wouldn't have been legitimate, would it? It would have been illegal. It was only in the later years it became possible for people to actually come here. But during the Second World War when you had the Kindertransport coming here and these children was coming and they were saying to their parents this is a wonderful place to live, it is beautiful. And most people then, it was like a big community really. They settled in Stepney, sort of um, um, Poplar, and then sort of drifting up to Aldgate, and then that Bethnal Green, and then Hoxton, you know, and it's like people I'm knew and I've brought up with, Jewish people, market stall holders, people like that. When they got hold and a few quid they moved out of Stepney. Where did they go? South Woodford. South Woodford. That's the place to live. When they'd been at South Woodford a few years and they made a few more quid, they went to Chigwell. But now, they all live out in Rochford.
Ivy’s Story by Louise aka Curly Wordy - Holden Point
Ivy
0:00:00
When the war was on in 1945, my mum was going to my nan's and she said to him, go round to the shop on Anthriff (?) Road Bridge, because there used to be all shops along there, and get me a loaf of bread. And he said, all right mum, and then all of a sudden she went, no, no, leave it, and all the window frames come on, because my dad was now at work, all the window frame come on and my dad was smothered in glass and the window frame. - Wow, so it was like close proximity then? - Yeah, yeah, it was so unusual that and then I lost her, I lost my sister, can I say that on there? I lost my sister at 16, she got burnt. She was burning birthday cards with my youngest sister up in the bedroom. And she caught the bottom of her dresser light. Because we used to have fireplaces then, didn't have what we have now.
0:01:02
And she was in with my youngest sister burning the birthday cards in the fireplace. And she caught the bottom of her dresser light. And instead of calling out for my mum, she said to my sister, my younger sister, no, no, she said don't call out, she said, because they got my dad downstairs because he'd broken a thigh, to give him a bath. She said no, no, don't worry mum, she said, and she got up and she ran down the stairs and she was just one ball of flames. All you could see was her head. - You saw that? That must have been a horrific experience. - She was 16 when she died and I was 18. And she ran down the stairs and all you could see was her head. And my dad, he had a broken leg, how he got up I don't know, but he jumped up off the chair and he just slipped all her clothes off of her.
0:01:57
And I was doing washing, he used to have the old baths in the sink, and I was washing and he picked the bowl up, bath up and just throw the water over her to set her out. Anyway, the ambulance came and took her to Queen Mary's Hospital in Stratford and she burnt all her liver, kidney away, everything. And we never got on, it was funny, I used to get on more with my brother than I did with my sister. I went to see her it was in Queen Mary's Hospital and she had this big cage over her with all lights in it and all you could see, it was like tripe, like down one side of her body and she was in there for three weeks and they moved her to Mount Vernon hospital and she was in there for two weeks and said that she'd burnt all her kidney and liver away and if she'd have lived she would have been in a wheelchair that she wouldn't have liked because she's always been active she used to play football with the boys, cricket you know and she would have been the same but then my mum dying at 51 what would she be doing? - Indeed yeah yeah. - So you know it was it was sad but it makes me cry.
0:03:17
We never went abroad. My mum couldn't afford it. My dad was in bad health anyway. From when my dad was 15 he suffered with fits. And his mum died very young. He was only 15 when his mum died. And he used to live on the barges at Bow - at Bow locks? - Yeah cause he had nowhere to live. And he used to swim across the water to get something to eat. And then he met my mum, and my nan took him in, and he lived with my mum, and they got married. But my dad was always in bad health. He had fits from when he was young, because his mum died in a fit. So epileptic potentially? Yeah, yeah. And it used to frighten me. I was only what, 15? My mum used to go to work and he used to, we all had to take turns. When we'd come out of school, one had to wash up, one had to sweep the floor, and one had to get the potatoes ready for my mum when she'd come in. We always had to do something because Joanie had died so there was only the three of us and he suffered with fits for years and years my dad and then when my mum died it didn't do him any good you know and then he, when he used to have one, one day he had one, alright you laugh about it now but it wasn't at the time it was frightening, he had one and he went right out in it.
0:04:50
And the lady who lives near two doors from from us, Mrs Rogers, I run up to her and I've got the frying pan in my hand because I used to cook dinner for us when we was on six weeks holiday. And I've run up there with the frying pan in my hand and I said, what's the matter Ivy? I said, my dad's having a fit. And she said, oh I'll come up with you. And she come up and she helped me with him, you know. But he used to frighten me when he used to go in. It is frightening to see an epileptic kid, especially if you're not like trained or prepared Yeah, it was really frightening it was to think that. And he worked all his life for us you know, and he tried, and they've done their best for us, you can't take that away.
0:05:29
And nobody could say anything about my mum. - Sounds like you learnt the graft young, like you all knew how to do your bit? - We all had to do out bit yeah. And my mum, when I got married I lived with her for six years and she used to work at Leslie's then because my dad wasn't working then because he had thrombosis and god knows what with him. And she used to come in my house because I'd moved in Forest Lane and she used to come around, come indoors and I had Susan, she was five and Stevie was two. And she always come in my house before she went home. And then she used to say, I'm going now. And I'd say, alright, I'll be round in a minute. She couldn't have got indoors and took her coat on and I was round there. And I used to stay round there till my husband came home, you know, from work and that.
0:06:18
And, oh, I don't know, it was so... I can't explain it really, but I just loved her to bits, my mum.
Janet’s Story by Beth - Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park
Janet
0:00:00
We had the dock strike as well, obviously. So we used to, when we used to collect to stop the docks from closing down. So we used to collect for that. But we collected for miners and we also donated all clothes. And then we bought them down for Christmas, one Christmas and had a Christmas party for all the children.
Beth
0:00:19
Which miners, where did the miners come from? Which bit of the country did the miners come from?
Janet
0:00:23
Wales.
Beth
0:00:24
Or different ones, or?
Janet
0:00:26
I think that was, like, oh they were from Wales.
Beth
0:00:28
Wales, oh, the Welsh miners, yeah.
Janet
0:00:30
Then I picked this one, I remember I was looking in the paper one day and I saw one from North Wales, said they desperately need money. So I actually did, that was my little project. So I used to sort of collect for that. I used to get in so many arguments at work with people who didn't agree with it or if I wore a badge on the train people would say something, even at my corner shop. Because I went up my corner shop and said to the man, I said, can I put a donation box here? He said, yeah, of course you can. And people in there were sort of mumbling about it. So I donated to North Wales, somewhere up there in North Wales, I can't think, somewhere over there. And then when the strike was over they sent a letter asking me to go there. They were putting a party on for people that collected and unfortunately I was going to be in hospital for an operation and I couldn't go, I missed it. So that's a shame, but yeah we used to have lots of marches.
Layla’s Story by Ansar - Swadhinata Trust
Ansar
0:00:00
One of the reasons I chose to interview you because I recently came across, I'm sure you were aware of this, a TikTok video that's doing a round, and I think some people have called it the rapid Cockney girl. I think it's because of your strong Cockney accent. And I was just wondering, you know, you said you have sisters who are younger than you and older ones. Do they also have Cockney accent or is it just you?
Layla
0:00:25
It's interesting, gosh that TikTok video, I don't have TikTok and I saw some of the comments and they were really cruel and horrible so I just didn't read the rest. Yeah I don't know, I kind of felt like it was a weird sort of thing that people were sort of looking at and you know it's like when I was 14, I was young and I think my accent is still, depending on who I'm with, it changes a lot, you know, many people's accents change depending in the sort of company that you're with. So I think my accent is still very much an East London sort of accent, but probably not as broad cockney as it previously was.
Ansar
0:01:14
I'm just wondering how did that come about? Because your sister's probably...
Layla
0:01:18
Well, my big sister has a very strong Cockney accent and I think my older sisters, yeah, the three older than me, they have Cockney accents or more of a London accent, whereas my younger sister, her accent actually, she's ten years younger than me and she was born in the UK in London.
Ansar
0:01:44
And she doesn't have a Cockney accent?
Layla
0:01:45
No, she doesn't. And I've seen that sort of amongst that age group. She's 40 and anything sort of 40 and younger, they have a real, it's a real mix of accents that it's like the accents have changed and evolved and that happens you know accents do, language does yeah no I mean yeah well pretty much everyone I grew up with we all had East London Cockney accents and it no that's that's how it was you most people did have a Cockney accent and and so you pick up I mean an example is when I you pick up the accent of people around you, you pick up mannerisms, you pick up the way somebody says something. So when I, I've been to Australia many times and I lived out there for a year and without realising when I came back to London after a year in Australia, I, everyone just said I sounded Australian to my English London friends so yeah I think it's the people around me were from London and we all spoke it you know it was mixed because I've just told you that the makeup of my school clearly there was a big Bangladeshi population, there was and there still is a big Bangladeshi population in the East End. But what we probably heard on TV, the people around us, the people in the shops, the shopkeepers, they reflected the area. And over time that has changed considerably. So the London accent now, I can, I hear, if I hear somebody sort of my age or older speak, I can often pinpoint that they're from East London, because the East London accent, you know, back in the days was very, very distinctive. But as sorts of communities change and the makeup of people changes, accents change. I don't know why my little sister's accent is definitely not like an East London accent. It's probably got a bit of an accent and the accent is probably, I'd say, what many Bengali girls and guys in the area of that age actually sound like it's a mix.
Ansar
0:04:29
Just going back to the video, you said you didn't like some of the comments that were made. What kind of comments?
Layla
0:04:38
I don't know. I mean, like I said, one of the first ones I said something like, bloody hell, you know, do her parents know that she's... I think I was so young my vocabulary was probably quite limited and you know if I didn't know that that was me I'd probably think oh poor kid you know bit nervous not really saying much just sort of going "yeah you know I mean yeah" it was that sort of language and I think I would I would probably think I would probably think oh this person's really young, hasn't really developed really fully what they mean or understand. But the comments were cruel, they just felt cruel, they felt like they were, people were taking the piss out of the way I was speaking. They were, um, and the thing is I used to have a Twitter account, I don't like to, you know, I, that sort of trial by social media and I see people a lot younger than me, so I call it being almost obsessed with social media. And it was rather than seeing the, this for what it was, which is just an interview with a young kid in the early 80s, the comments that, like I said, I literally just stopped reading after a couple of comments. I just felt they were just, they were taking the piss, and they were horrible, and not that I can't take it now, you know, I'm old enough now to be able to...
Ansar
0:06:12
Do you have a care with your Cockney accent?
Layla
0:06:14
Oh absolutely fine, yeah, no, I'm absolutely fine, and I think it's, as I'm talking to you I can feel myself becoming a bit more London, or a bit more Cockney.
Michelle’s Story by Beth - Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park
Michelle
0:00:00
I don't know, you don't hear as many people with our accent anymore, but if I hear like an older person like on a bus or something, and it's just something, it's a phrase that they'll use, and it just takes you back and you know, aunts and uncles. So just things like that, and they're just like really special times. But when bringing up my own kids, even though we're still quite a tight-knit family, I just don't think that you have that family network in the same way that we... Like my kids don't really, are not really best of friends with their cousins, whereas we were all, like our cousins and their cousins, we were sort of one big group. So yeah, just that sort of family. And then, like my dad was obviously very political, so I just used to, like, we used to go on lots of marches. My dad was always on strike. Anyone who went out on strike, the dockers always went out on strike in sympathy. And I just loved that. I loved going to all of the, like, the various, yeah, demonstrations. We used to go to the docks, and they would have the open vote where you'd have to, like, raise your hand. Oh, yeah. For strike action.
Michelle
0:01:21
And I just used to, I just used to feel like my dad was really important. We were sort of, you know, we were part of something. So I've got really fond memories of all of those times. And we used to... We got really friendly with Liverpool Dockers who were on strike at the same time in the early 70s. So they used to come and stay at a house and we still have that now so we would still see they come to my dad's pub each year. - Even now? - Go there. Oh yeah even now. A lot of them have obviously, my dad's like will be 80 next year so a lot of them, he was probably one of the youngest, but yeah they will still come to like our, we had a wedding in the family they would come like there, so that has remained and it is interesting that because they're... Growing up in Canning Town and having a dock community is quite a different experience. I've worked out from potentially growing up in other parts of East London, so there are lots of things that you will share in common with those families that we've grown up with in Liverpool, who were dock families, that other people in East London might not sort of recognize as much. So yeah, they were special times. When my dad was on strike, obviously it was hard times. And I remember once going to school with my brother, and my mum had to take us into the headteacher and sort of say that we needed to have 'free' school dinners, because obviously my dad was on strike. And I remember my brother saying, 'three' dinners, I could just about eat one meal, but I'll just never forget that, because I thought oh yeah that was lost in the accent. But, yeah, so there was a good time. Good friends, still friends with some of those people now. But, yeah.
Beth
0:03:04
And when did it all finish? How did it all finish? It must have been very difficult.
Michelle
0:03:10
So the docks, I think my dad... The docks closed in about 81, I think, early 80s, and then my dad went to Tilbury Dock and he stayed there for a few years. But I was probably doing O-levels or something by then. But I felt like something changed, sort of, something changed in the 80s, even in my street. So, like, people started to buy their own homes. Then people would do their homes a bit differently. So someone would put pebbledash up, someone would add the columns or whatever else. And people just seemed to get a little bit more competitive. And I don't know whether that... I did remember thinking that at the time, there did seem to be a shift. And then obviously, like, we weren't, so we didn't used to go to the Dockers Club anymore because that had closed. Obviously, I was growing up then, so life changes anyway. But I just, and then you start, once people owned their homes, I think people stayed, I don't think people moved out for a while, but then they started to move out. So people maybe had had caravans in like places like All Hallows or in Clapton, then they started to move there. Probably, I don't know, that was probably more like the 90s that people really started to move. And yeah, there's not many, I mean, my dad's still got a pub in Canning Town, which he got after, when he was at Tilbury Docks, he was in Tilbury, a few of them were in there, and I think they were seen as union agitators, but they were sacked for something or other. But they took the case to the High Court and won unfair dismissal for union activity. So they were really sort of pleased about that. But yeah, I think, so then he went into the pub. And you can just tell, I think people still go to my dad's pub now on a Sunday. They'll sort of return just to drink there but I think if you were like to ask out of the 25 people that were there how many of them still lived in and around Canning Town I just think I don't know maybe there'd be one or two and that would be it really.
Terrence’s Story by Twinkle - Deep Boroughs
Terrence
0:00:00
I identify myself as an East Londoner. I say like, you know what I mean, I mean obviously I'm British, but I'm an East Londoner from the Cockney era, because we always, like my family was all dock workers, they all worked in the docks. Obviously when the dock closed down, a lot of people in the area closed, er, lost their jobs. That's, I put that down as one of the reasons a lot of people did move from the areas, a lot of the old East Enders and that. Cause obviously there was probably about 12,000 plus people who lost their jobs at the same time, within the same area, all round by the docks. So, that's why we identify it as East Enders, because it was all from, my dad was, worked in docks, his brothers, all his brothers, all the cousins, all the uncles, all worked in the docks. Other than that, a lot of people from here worked in these big, you know, the organisations around here, like Tate and Lyle's and, you know, those sort of things like that. Obviously at Ford's which would have been at Dagenham, a lot of people was employed from you know them areas and that. And I found in them days one of the things that's changed to me is that a lot of local people worked in their local areas. Now it doesn't seem to be that way. We talked to this proper East London Cockney now I suppose, he was like, alright mate, how's it going? You know, sorted and stuff like that. I remember when I was on one of the Zoom meetings and I ended up getting out to, I joined the wrong room, I ended up talking to people from South Carolina, I think it was in America, and I said, sorted, and they went, what do you mean, put salt on a fish Terrence? You know, so, it's just little phrases that you do go out with, and I suppose I talk fast and some people I found out I had to slow down for different things I've been doing because people didn't understand because they're talking fast. But when I speak, you know, it's like with, um, Jules will say to me when I talk to certain friends, I go more Cockney-fied. Because when you're trying to talk to other people, Alright, how's it going? You alright? What's happening? Sweet? Ah, lovely mate. I mean, you know, and they don't use so much of the phrases like they used in the old days, like apples and pears, you know, they don't go to extreme, like apples and pears, stairs, whistle and flute, suit, you know, them sort of things, you know, them sort of things they really hear as much no more. So I suppose the culture of Cockney is generally being lost a little bit. - So did you speak that language at home or? - Yeah, you should say that's how I know, I talked through my dad, through the things like that, you know, through different things they all spoke about like it and when you're young obviously you first start thinking what does he mean and then you start knowing what they mean they tell you and then you start to talk say things like that yourself and we're still you know what I mean you know them sort of things you've got a you know whistle and flute and say for suit and stuff but it was all ones like that and I also read a book when I was younger called someone bought me it was about this Sweeney which was a program you could go to and they had loads of Cockney phrases in the book. So I started, you learn and you say things like that. My dad would talk to me all the time to me, say things like that. Usually sometimes you just think what's he mean? Until you got a bit older and you understand. It's just something that was normal when people would say it, do you know what I mean? - So your dad knew Cockney and your mum also knew? - Yeah, yeah, my dad would talk it more than my mum but my dad yeah, and they were from the things from the docks and Dad come from always all his life always lived in Canning Town, Custom House, he's never lived nowhere else, he was always in East End. All family some of the family have moved a lot of them ones are from my dad's generation and Mum passed away But they was brought up as EastEnders yeah yeah always like Pie Mash, market on a certain day, everyone went down Rathbone market, packed down there, those stalls, Pie Mash, fish and chips on a Friday, always had fish and chips on a Friday it was like you know remember to me Pie Mash was like gold dust when I got Pie Mash. And it was also so so fast. Yeah. I remember when I first brought someone in here, when I first met one who ended up marrying my partner a few years ago, when I first brought her in, she went to me, how can you have five conversations? Because some of you are saying, yeah, yeah, that's right, that happened, yeah. And it's true, you'd be going like that and you'd have all the conversations whereas she couldn't keep up with it.
Terrence
0:04:25
Because she thought,
Terrence
0:04:26
because there's too many big families also a big family thing we also have conversations at once and everyone knew what everyone was saying that was interesting I liked it.
Twinkle
0:04:38
So so how likewhat do you think that Cockney language is is not there anymore or is just diminishing as you as generations move on I think it's diminishing as generations move on?
Terrence
0:04:48
generations move and there's losing it I suppose you know not just Cockney I suppose you could say about a lot of cultures it's like a lot of people who from Asian cultures also get more westernized I'd say it's completely different you know probably in certain religions you've got more people choosing their choosing their paths of their relationships whereas certain religions you have got married and mother and father pics I suppose it's still the same but I wouldn't think it was as more today as what it was years ago. Would you agree? - Yeah. - You know, so from that as it comes it becomes a little bit diluted. - Yeah. - So you get different things in your area then you got like you know I think to me the Cockney sort of thing in the East Enders thing was never a racist thing, never anything to do with racism. - But did you feel any racism in those days? - People have said to me they have but I didn't see it. But I wouldn't say it wasn't there. I wouldn't say it wasn't there. But it's just that you know we had different friends. We had you know different friends of different colors and different cultures. Never was an issue with me. I never thought about it. You know and I had good friends when I started doing work after college and stuff like that. And I suppose that I ended up having good friends who's Asian and all. So you end up, you accept. It's like, you know, I had a mate years ago used to take me to proper Indian restaurants and, you know, and I'd take him for Pie Mash. And it's funny, when I first went to the Indian eating restaurants, I was looking like, what's this, what's this, what's this? Well, yeah, Pie Mash, lots of Pie Mash, just say, what is this I'm eating? It's just pie, mash and liquor. So it's that sort of thing. So I think a lot of the, your roots and your, where you come from, your identity, probably from a lot of Cockney, your identity probably is a dying breed and I'd say probably a lot of it has been lost. So a hundred years is from there for example, maybe less. Would it ever be as, I don't think people would actually know about it as much. Yeah, we've still got EastEnders on, that comes on, but I don't think EastEnders is a true depiction you know because in this area as you watch EastEnders I've heard this before people do own their own washing machines everyone don't use laundry and everyone don't spend you know people still go to the pubs but you don't spend 24/7 in a pub there's probably people that do but all pubs are closed down around here there's no pubs you'd be caught the community people find out information in pubs, people get jobs in the pubs. People offer them, oh so and so, I need someone for a couple of weeks work down so and so. You know, you don't get that no more.
Twinkle
0:07:26
So do your siblings, your brothers and sisters, they still talk Cockney or you just, you don't anymore?
Terrence
0:07:33
They still do a bit, yeah. I would say they do as much as other times, yeah, but they still do I would say you can tell by you know you meet me sister Betty she's still got East End things she still says some words of people we don't know and that sort of thing you know and that and you know they do talk at you still yeah but it's not as relevant or fluent as it was years ago and you had everyone talking here so it's changed in that way I suppose as I said before it's probably a lot of different cultures have changed, but I think the Cockneys definitely have lost their, losing their identities.
Twinkle
0:08:08
So what do you think Cockney means to you? Like, what does that mean, that language means to you?
Terrence
0:08:15
It means where I come from, my, my, my past, my sense of feeling good, my community from around the area, with all that, like, all the er, the passion that people have, it gives me a good feeding. It's where I am, it's where I was brought up, it's where I've come from. It's my connection to the, my identity. It's my identity. You see it sometimes when I go you know, different meetings and things like that, sometimes I'll talk, sometimes they might not know a certain word I say, or things like that, you know. But er, you know, people say, sorted and that. It's like I was in one of the meetings and I said to about, there's one cake left, and I said, this little fella's got my name on the cake. And everyone looked at me like, what's he mean? You know what I mean? That means I was gonna take the last cake. So that sort of thing. You know, you're having a laugh. But I said earlier, sorted, you know, don't bubble me up, means, you know, grassing you up. They bubble him up, they grassed him. Someone's, yeah, someone bubbled him right up, they'd say. And then we'd know what I mean. My dad said, oh, he's bubbled him right up, yes, bubbled him right up. And you look and you think, yeah, yeah, you know, you get to know. You know, if I sat down here for about ten minutes, I probably could think of loads of different things that we use. And they become everyday words. Docks were one of the most bombed areas during the war because it obviously brought the country to a standstill. So a lot of people, these areas around here, like these areas around here, so it was mainly them. But then the other thing because of the docks, that's when you start seeing different more cultures and things because you see obviously a lot of the dockers would come over and you had dockers from other countries so that's one of them places that you first see different people you know that sort of thing it's like you know you and um it yeah I suppose so when people talking that same language you read or you're working together it becomes that becomes the language that people use the Cockney language was used a lot more because you had thousands of people from a certain area, but you didn't really get a person traveling from Kensington to go work in the docks. Or you know, or Chelsea, like a posher area, you didn't get someone coming to be a dock worker. You know, so it was usually all them places, which I've said earlier on, these chatting's usually have people for the community, they found work within their communities, local work. It seemed to be like that more so then.
Twinkle
0:10:51
That was better you think?
Terrence
0:10:52
I think, yeah, because it sustained the area. It's a bit like when the miners, when the mines shut, reminds me of that sort of thing. And I don't see why they don't equivalent that, because it's the same thing as docks. When the mines shut, you become that, not only you look like the miners are out of work, and then because the shops in that area were also shut down because they all had to move out, because there was no one to spend any money in them, because no one was working. So a similar thing happened around here I feel with that, you know, why people did move out and people moved to places like Essex more, you know, Basildon, you know, Billericay and different areas, you know what I mean, different areas just outside. They moved there because of the options of jobs and options of work and different things because when you was around yourself at the same one, you had all them families and that working for that area. Because they had that other identity that other people's got also.
Twinkle
0:11:44
Like what?
Terrence
0:11:46
Well, when I'm saying about different things, as I say, cultures and things, it merges into one a little bit more. But I feel like with that, I knew I was an Eastender. And you speak like an Eastender, not just in a Cockney way, but you speak and you say these words, because what we grew up, so to us it was normality. Do you know what I mean? You know, dad, you know, if I was going to a thing when I was younger, went to a thing, my dad goes, I said, early on my dad, go and get your whistle on, sort your whistle out, you know, sort your things out, you know, um, your daisy roots, boots, you know, where's your daisies? You know what I mean? If someone was in here, you didn't know, you'd think what's his daisy, what's he talking about? And so that's what I see a change in, you know.
Terry’s Story by Beth - Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park
Terry
0:00:00
Saturday morning pictures was an absolute delight, every Saturday morning, it was the peak of the week. - Where did you go to? - The Carlton in Essex Road, it's still there, I think it's got a preservation order on it.
Beth
0:00:18
Art Deco one.
Terry
0:00:19
That's right. - Bingo Hall now I think. - Well, it used to be, I don't think it is anymore, cause my mum used to bingo there. Up until she was burgled and then she got paranoid about leaving the house. But, yeah, it was like Egyptian art deco. It was quite ornate and a wonderful place. And so we must have been about five when Sister Pat took us. And, you know, just exciting. It was just magical, absolutely magical and people like Rocket Man, you know, it's sort of strap a rocket on his back and go off to fight the baddies and that and of course coming out you know you put your coat on you know like you're Rocket Man and of course what would be the cherry on the cake after Saturday morning pictures was Pie and Mash at Nathan's in New North Road and it you know and going out the back and the marble tables had four dips in that's how old it was it must have been going for about a century by the time we, and going out back would be the best place, if we could get the one table out the back to watch the old boy making pies and carrying them through and the smell and everything, it was just magical. And I can often remember, you know, being in on a Saturday afternoon and it would be raining outside, but feeling all snug and comfortable because you'd had your fill of all the excitement and adventure of the week but even that was tainted I can remember you know by the violence that was around every corner that's why all these people that have rose-tinted visions of the past and consequently you get this is why you get a lot of people voting for Brexit for this magical 1950s it was no picnic you know in the queue waiting for Saturday morning pictures all of a sudden and you know somebody must have bunked in the queue and Stevie Williams from no David Williams was started having a punch-up with somebody and it was like two wild dogs sort of rolling around, you know such was the ferocity that they of them sort of roll around scrapping. It was just a stomach churning. You don't want to see that. You know, what, because somebody was bunking in. Even now I still got a thing about people bunking in. You know, I won't be afraid, you know, even though I wouldn't harm a fly, I won't be, excuse me, there's a queue here, you know. I'm not standing here coming forward with that, you know. And I said, maybe that was my Saturday morning. My father taught me to box when I, there was a family history of boxing and because there's a picture of my granddad who was called Joe Dasher obviously his name was Conway but they called him Dasher because he was fast on his pins and he'd make extra money by boxing so all members of the family got Joe Dasher there. Well you see a picture of my Nan and she could go toe-to-toe with him you know they used to physically have physical fights and meant that it was a very sort of fractured family. So I came in crying, a boy downstairs, Stevie Williams, had pushed me down the stairs and my dad said, don't ever come back here crying and he taught me to box. He died when I was five and but what he had taught me, stayed with me so that I won the school boxing when I was 12. That's how good it was. I've got a five-year-old grandson, I can't imagine teaching him for starting playing out in the streets in Hackney because all my family still live in Hackney, the grandchildren and children and him you know teaching him to box or allowing him to play out on the streets but such you know and although I don't like that I appreciate that I had some skills because after the school box I went on to fight in the... and it was the kudos of that, to be looked upon by peers as somebody that could handle themselves and stuff like that. And for much of my social work career I worked with mentally disordered offenders and some people that have, well either going up through the system, you know, to Broadmoor and Rampton or coming down through the system. They've been in many years and Because we are suited and booted for this wedding. I told Toby Layla's partner about how when we had mental health review tribunals would like And I'd wear a suit and and a lot of guys was like ah you look like a 1960s gangster And of course I play up to all that because there was all you know some of the guys, you know, the reason they was in medium deemed mentally disordered offender, they had done serious crimes as well, you know, sometimes murder and stuff like that. So again, I appreciated that. And unlike many colleagues, I was never assaulted. And maybe that had something to do with it that he looks at, because, you know, I remember my Layla, Dad why do you bolt? And I think everybody in my, it's just the walk. You know, like, oh yeah, he looks like he could handle himself. You know, and all these things that are imperceptible when you're there and you're in it. But, you know, so, yeah, so learning to speak in an aggressive manner, you know, bowling along with an air of sort of false confidence or whatever, you know, that's how the area shapes you. I truly believe that the blueprint of who we are as adults is formed in those early formative years, and so even at 71 I'm still processing a lot of that stuff, and writing's a great help in that, I think, in order to process. I don't think I'll ever stop processing it and trying to become better than I am, you know.
Beth
0:06:06
If I was to ask you like a most important person in your life and influence wise, is there anyone that you can, can you tell me about them? Who would come to mind?
Terry
0:06:14
Yeah, it's, yeah, it's the person who I met when a week before, yeah, a week before my 23rd birthday and we met in a nightclub called Crackers and we always laugh and joke about that. And Judy, meeting Judy, my wife, and it was so just fortuitous. One of the working titles of the book is Cockney Kismet. I think it rolls off the tongue. But it was pure chance that we met because she never went clubbing, I never went clubbing. And I went with a gay friend who wanted to still have a beard of being straight, have a wife and children and that's what motivated him because you know homosexuality and you know there's still a huge amount of stigma back in the early 70s or mid 70s and Judy never went with her friend and it got to about two o'clock in the morning or half past one and we still hadn't pulled which was the reason for going down there and and this is no word of a lie uh we said what about those two uh yeah because Pete was taller than me, you have the tall one I have the small one, and that was it colour didn't really come into it and but from very early on Judy doesn't remember this conversation, you know, and I didn't want to force myself you know, I didn't want I was, Judy was very difficult to read So I said well look it's my birthday next week. I'd love to hear from you. This is my number My number was very simple. I remember it, you know, it was Cannonbury 226 4455. So I'd love to hear from you. And fortunately enough, she called me back. But I can remember just a few weeks after starting to see one another on a regular basis and went back. Judy lived the other side of Hoxton. And so there I was crossing those badlands that I spoke about. And they really were badlands then, because the National Front had the first ever local councillor, a guy called Derek Day, was elected there and people used to shout things out to us, you know, oi you should be ashamed of yourself, and Judy was very quiet and like Layla in many respects, my younger daughter Sophie is more like me and Judy and Layla are very similar, but Judy, much to my surprise, shouted something back to me, but it shouted something back to the person shouting out, yeah, and you should be ashamed of yourself,
Terry
0:08:52
or something like that.
Terry
0:08:53
But I'll never forget what Judy said to me early on, she said there's a couple of things that you should, you know, I think she must have realised, oh, I've got a naive fool here on my hands. She said, look, for a start, I'm a woman, so my life experience is very different from yours, and secondly, I'm Black, you know, so my life is, you know, and I think again it was her way of talking about White male privilege and that, you know, the subtext of that is if you want this to work you're going to have to walk a mile in my shoes and I'm still walking that mile, I'm still learning and it's all thanks to Judy and we have a fantastic family and extended family, and great grandchildren and you know it's just, oh, I just feel, you know, so blessed.